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Forum:Heavy Weapon Ammo Pickup Amounts
| developer = User:SoulRipper | originaldeveloper = | developernotes = | statusdate = September 20, 2010 | pagelocation = User:SoulRipper/sandbox | instructions = | supportingcontent = Talk:Heavy Weapons#Ammo Pickup Amount | discussion = here }} SoulRipper has been working on getting the actual amount of Heavy Weapon ammo picked up and has asked that this be opened. He has created a sandbox page, linked above, to demonstrate the pickup amounts and list them accurately. Listing that information cannot go into the because of the amount of information so this is a proposal to modify the Heavy Weapon pages to include the information. Lancer1289 21:13, September 20, 2010 (UTC) While playing, I realized that the Ammo Pickup Amount was not the same every time so I tested all the Heavy Weapons. These are the "results" from the testing: *''M-100 GL(20 total): 0 ammo-->8 pickup, 1 ammo-->7 pickup, 2 ammo-->6 pickup, 3 ammo-->5 pickup, 4 ammo-->4 pickup, 5 ammo-->4 pickup, 10 ammo-->4 pickup, 15 ammo-->4 pickup. *''M-77 ML(30 total): 0 ammo-->12, 1-->11, 2-->10, 3-->9, 4-->8, 5-->7, 6-->6, 10-->6, 15-->6, 20-->6 pickup *''M-622 Avalanche(41 total): 0 ammo-->16, 1-->15, 2-->14, 3-->13, 4-->12, 5-->11, 6-->10, 7-->9, 8-->8, 9-->8, 10-->8, 15-->8,20-->8, 25-->8 pickup. *''M-490 Blackstorm(10 total): 0 ammo-->4, 1-->3, 2-->2, 3-->2, 4-->2, 5-->2, 6-->2, 7-->2 pickup. *''Arc Projector(20 total): 0 ammo-->8, 1-->7, 2-->6, 3-->5, 4-->4, 5-->4, 6-->4, 7-->4, 8-->4, 9-->4, 10-->4, 15-->4 pickup. *''Collector Particle Beam(1025 total): 0 ammo-->410, 5-->405, 100-->310, 200-->210, 300-->205, 400-->205, 500-->205, 600-->205, 700-->205, 800-->205, 900-->125 pickup(propably because of the 1025 total limit). *''M-451 Firestorm(1025 total: 0 ammo-->410, 5-->405, 100-->310, 200-->210, 300-->205, 400-->205, 500-->205, 600-->205, 700-->205, 800-->205, 900-->125 pickup(propably because of the 1025 total limit). *''M-920 Cain(205% total): 5% ammo--> 47% pickup, 105% ammo--> 26% pickup, 131% ammo-->26% pickup ammo = Spare Ammo, pickup = Ammo Pickup What you can see here is that as the Spare Ammo increases, the Ammo Pickup decreases untill it gets stable at some point. That happens when the Spare Ammo = Pickup Ammo. After that it will be always Spare Ammo > Pickup Ammo. Another thing is that the Min Ammo Pickup (stable) is half the Max Ammo Pickup (when Spare Ammo = 0 ). For example: M-100 GL, Max Ammo Pickup = 8 and Min Ammo Pickup = 4. The table is just a draft. The ">5" in the table means that the Pickup Ammo will be always 4 for any number of Spare Ammo bigger than 5. Except when the S.A. is for example 18 (for the M-100 with a 20 total ammo capacity), then you will get 2 ammo so the total ammo will be 20. SoulRipper 21:54, September 20, 2010 (UTC) :I made some calculations and found that the Max Ammo Pickup (for all weapons except the Cain) is 40% of the total ammo capacity and the Min Ammo Pickup is 20% of the total ammo capacity. :Example (Max%): 8 = 40% of the 20 total for the M-100 GL. Example 2(Min%): 205% = 20% of the 1025 total for the Collector Particle Beam. :For the M-100 the numbers (percentage) are: :*''M-100 GL(20 total): 0 ammo-->40% pickup, 1 ammo-->35% pickup, 2 ammo-->30% pickup, 3 ammo-->25% pickup, 4 ammo-->20% pickup, 5 ammo-->20% pickup, 10 ammo--> 20%pickup, 15 ammo-->20% pickup. :That shows that the Ammo Pickup Amount is even more non-standard. I think it works on percentage. I will do more testing and post the results. SoulRipper 08:43, September 21, 2010 (UTC) WOW!!! This mission just got alot more complicated. I tested the M-100 GL on Freedom's Progress without any upgrades: *''M-100 GL(10 total): 0 ammo-->4 pickup, 1 ammo-->3 pickup, 2 ammo-->2 pickup, 3 ammo-->2 pickup, 4 ammo-->2 pickup, 5 ammo-->2 pickup, 6 ammo-->4 pickup, 7 ammo-->4 pickup, 8 ammo-->2 pickup, 9 ammo-->1 pickup (because of the 10 ammo total limit). In other words: *''M-100 GL (10 total): 0 ammo-->40% pickup, 1 ammo-->30% pickup (You can't get 3,5 ammo), 2 ammo-->20% pickup, 3-8 ammo-->20% pickup. Also, on Zorya, I got 200 ammo, also 40% for the Firstorm with a total of 500 (default-no upgrades). Decimals are "removed". Example: Instead of 3,4 ammo you get 3 ammo or instead of 4,8 it you will get 4 ammo. The percentage though doesn't seems to work, especially with the Collector Particle Beam and the Firestorm. The 40% Max ammo and the 20% Min Ammo work for sure (except for the Cain) but the intermediate percent numbers are very different (from weapon to weapon), sometimes with many decimals (Collector Particle Beam and the Firestorm). Here is the info for all the Heavy Weapons except the Cain (it's really difficult to get results from it cause the ammo doesn't works like the other weapons). I also included the 7th Heavy Weapon Ammo Upgrade which is obtainable with the cheat code. More to come. SoulRipper 18:15, September 21, 2010 (UTC) UPDATE OK, I think I figured out how the Ammo Pickup works. I have added all the AmmoPickups for all the Heavy Weapons and all Upgrades in this sandbox. I listed the 6 standard Heavy Weapon Ammo Upgrades and also the 5 more by cheat use. I was testing some cheats with a test profile of mine so I have a total of 11 H.W.A.Upgrades which is a +165% ammo. Here we go: Total Ammo = DefaultAmmo + * (X * 15%) - Decimals The X is the number of upgrades (0 to 11). The "''- Decimals''" is there because you can't have 3,5 grenades or rockets, can you? :P *Example (M-100 GL with 1 H.W.A.Upgrade): DefaultAmmo = 10 so: TotalAmmo = 10 + * (1 * 15%) - Decimals = 10 + 1,5 - 0,5 = 11 Now MaxAmmoPickup = (TotalAmmo * 40%) - Decimals *Example (M-100 GL with 1 H.W.A.Upgrade): TotalAmmo is 11, so: MaxAmmoPickup = (11 * 40%) - Decimals = 4,4 - 0,4 = 4 *Example2 (Collector Particle Beam without H.W.A.Upgrades): TotalAmmo is 500, so: MaxAmmoPickup = (500 * 40%) - Decimals = 200 - 0 = 200. Decimals = 0 because there are no decimals. MinAmmoPickup = (MaxAmmoPickup / 2) - Decimals *Example (M-77 ML with 2 H.W.A.Upgrades): MaxAmmoPickup = 7, so: MinAmmoPickup = (7 / 2) - Decimals = 3,5 - 0,5 = 3 *Example2 (M-77 ML with 3 H.W.A.Upgrades): MaxAmmoPickup = 8, so: MinAmmoPickup = (8 / 2) - Decimals = 4 - 0 = 4 AmmoPickupAmmount = MaxAmmoPickup - SpareAmmo. This works when SpareAmmo is less than the half of the MaxAmmoPickup. When SpareAmmo is equal to or more than the MinAmmoPickup then the AmmoPickupAmount will be always equal to the MinAmmoPickup. This works for all the Heavy Weapons including Cain. Exception when MaxAmmoPickup - SpareAmmo is less than the MinAmmoPickup. In that case you will get the difference betwin the MaxAmmoPickup and SpareAmmo. *Example: M-77 ML, TotalAmmo is 21, SpareAmmo is 18 and MinAmmoPickup is 4. AmmoPickupAmmount will be 3. The Cain's AmmoPickupAmount works different. It has 2 MaxAmmoPickups. The MinAmmoPickup is the half of the MaxAmmoPickup. *The one (Max1) is when Spare Ammo = 0 and the other (Max2) is when SpareAmmo = TotalAmmo - (Y*100) *Y = 1 or 2. It's the number of shots available depending on how many upgrades you have. Its 1 for 0 to 6 upgrades and 2 for 7 to 11 upgrades. **Example (for 4 Upgrades): TotalAmmo is 160, Max1 is 40 and Min is 20, so: SpareAmmo = 160 - (1*100) = 160 - 100 = 60. Because SpareAmmo is more than the Min the Max2 = Min = 20 **Example (for 7 Upgrades): TotalAmmo is 205, Max1 is 52 and Min is 26, so: SpareAmmo = 205 - (2*100) = 205 - 200 = 5. Because SpareAmmo is less than the Min the Max2 = Max1 - SpareAmmo = 52 - 5 = 47 Cain's Ammo can have different ammo amounts than the standard (and even reach 0) if you changed your current Heavy Weapon with Cain during a mission in a weapons locker. The ammo that Cain will have depends on how much Spare Ammo has the previous Heavy Weapon. This is it. Now I have to find out how this info (especially from the sandbox) can be added in a user-friendly table. Any help is welcome. Sorry for all the maths and my (bad) English. SoulRipper 20:32, September 27, 2010 (UTC) UPDATE 2 (Final) Sorry guys, a lot of the previous numbers are wrong. The 40%-20% doesnt works (only with some weapons and at some upgrades). It's out. I colculated the the numbers because I couldn't test one by one the upgrades (I have a profile with 3 Upgrades, one with 5, one with 7 and one with 11). Now with the cheat code I was able to test all upgrades one by one and the results were a bit different. I changed all the numbers that needed to be changed in this sandbox. Those are the exact accurate numbers. I didn't included the armor bonuses. Also the 4th Heavy Weapon Ammo Upgrade (+60%) gives always -1 Ammo (M-100 instead of +6 gives +5, CPB instead of +300 gives +299, Cain instead of +60% gives +59& etc). Here are the updated tables for all Heavy Weapons: *M-100 Grenade Launcher *Arc Projector *Collector Particle Beam *M-451 Firestorm *ML-77 Missile Launcher *M-490 Blackstorm *M-622 Avalanche *M-920 Cain I hope this table (with the notes) is more user-friendly than the first one. One thing is for sure, as it is in the template, the AmmoPickupAmount(Min-Max) iτs not correct because there are several Min-Max values instead of one. Feel free to comment, suggest a more user-friendly table or whatever. Im done. SoulRipper 16:08, September 28, 2010 (UTC) Comments Comments Personally I think it would be a good idea to list the actual amounts rather than the range that we have now. Lancer1289 21:13, September 20, 2010 (UTC) :I'm not sure I understand the table, but I agree that we should add that information to each heavy weapon page. --silverstrike 21:28, September 20, 2010 (UTC) ::Yeah, I'm not gonna lie... I too find the table pretty confusing. Maybe if something could be done to make it a little more "user-friendly"? SpartHawg948 21:29, September 20, 2010 (UTC) :::I'd have to agree was well. I guess I wasn't really looking that closly the first time, see my talk page for more on why, but that table is a little confusing isn't it. Lancer1289 21:35, September 20, 2010 (UTC) ::::From what I ''do understand, the amount of heavy ammo you pick up is linked to the amount of heavy ammo you already have, so it's basically understanding the math used by the game, and then creating a user friendly version to represent it. --silverstrike 21:39, September 20, 2010 (UTC) Added info. I hope it helps. The table can get better, its just a draft. It can also have some description above the table. SoulRipper 21:54, September 20, 2010 (UTC) :Nice work SoulRipper. Assuming all of your numbers are right: I haven't checked every single number, but from the majority, it appears that the 20% rule still holds. I.e. the "standard" ammo pickup is 20% of the total you can carry (but truncated, i.e. without the decimal). The maximum pickup is then double that truncated standard amount. Cain is the exception. -- In short, then, the Heavy Weapons pages can avoid adding a new table by reporting under "ammo pickup" the "Standard" ammo pickup (base it on 0 upgrades), which is 20% of the total (truncated), with a note added that says "The standard amount of ammo picked up is 20% of the total ammo Shepard can carry (dropping any fractions). If Shepard currently carries less than a threshold amount (which is double the standard amount), the amount picked up will bring Shepard's ammo to that threshold." --AnotherRho 16:52, September 28, 2010 (UTC) ::No, the 20% doesnt works. ::Example: M-100 GL. Total Ammo 10, Min Ammo 2. Total Ammo 14, Min Ammo 2. ::2 is definittely not the 20% of 14. Yeah, it works somehow ONLY if the Total Ammo(and upgrade) is the right one. Its more likely that those values are set by the devs and not by percentage.SoulRipper 19:49, September 28, 2010 (UTC) :::Right, 2 is not 20% of 14. But it is 20% of the total, truncated (i.e., dropping the fraction/decimal). 20% of 14 is 2.8; .8 round is impossible, so the fraction is ignored, becoming just 2. If you double that, you get 4, which is the "max" pick up if Shep can carry 14. My guess is that the code is a simple mathematical formula that truncates 20% of the total, and uses that as the base ("standard") value. --AnotherRho 20:55, September 28, 2010 (UTC) ::::Oh yeah, just did the maths. I was thinking the 40%-20% logic. Yeah, the 20%-Double works. I wasn't that wrong after all :) ::::One thing, the amount is not standard. I mean its standard for a upgrade but not standard in general. That goes for the standard amount. Its better I think to say The pickup amount is 20% blah blah... SoulRipper 21:46, September 28, 2010 (UTC) Yes, you weren't wrong, and yes, you're probably right about the "standard". Good to give the multiplier or the formula, so that the user can figure it out. Trying to think of a way to say it briefly without too much confusion. AnotherRho 22:05, September 28, 2010 (UTC) :OK, I think I have it: :When: :*(TotalAmmo * 20%) - Decimals < SpareAmmo ≤ TotalAmmo - * 20%) - Decimals :* ≤ : less than or equal to. :* For ANY amount of SpareAmmo which is MORE than the AmmoPickup ((TotalAmmo * 20%) - Decimals) and LESS THAN or EQUAL TO the TotalAmmo minus the AmmoPickup (TotalAmmo - * 20%) - Decimals). :*AmmoPickup = (TotalAmmo * 20%) - Decimals :When: :*SpareAmmo = 0 :*AmmoPickup(Max) = * 20%) - Decimals * 2 :When: :*SpareAmmo = * 20%) - Decimals - X :*AmmoPickup = * 20%) - Decimals + X :* X is the same number for both SpareAmmo and AmmoPickup, so SpareAmmo + AmmoPickup = AmmoPickup(Max). ::Example (M-100 GL, 2 upgrades, TotalAmmo = 13): ::*(13 * 20%) - Decimals < SpareAmmo ≤ 13 - * 20%) - Decimals ::*2,6 - 0,6 < SpareAmmo ≤ 13 - 2,6 - 0,6 ::*2 < SpareAmmo ≤ 11 ::*AmmoPickup = (13 * 20%) - Decimals = 2,6 - 0,6 = 2 ::*SpareAmmo = 0 ::*AmmoPickup(Max) = * 20%) - Decimals * 2 = * 20%) - Decimals * 2 = (2,6 - 0,6) * 2 = 4 ::*SpareAmmo = * 20%) - Decimals - 1 = 2,6 - 0,6 -1 = 1 ::*AmmoPickup = * 20%) - Decimals + 1 = 2,6 - 0,6 + 1 = 3 ::*SpareAmmo + AmmoPickup = AmmoPickup(Max) ::*1 + 3 = 4 : Cain is an exception. The 20% DOES NOT work for the Cain. :I think this are the "mathematical formulas". SoulRipper 20:45, October 2, 2010 (UTC)